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TOPIC: Pas­sion attrib­utes capped at 5

Pas­sion attrib­utes capped at 5 7 years 8 months ago #501

  • Mozusuke
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A cou­ple of novices ques­tions about this that a player I’m kick­ing off with has asked, and I wasn’t sure about,

1) What happes when the PA is at 5, and he mer­its another point (e.g. takes a great risk asso­ci­ated with the PA)
2) Look­ing at the costs asso­ci­ated with increas­ing attrib­utes, if you wanted to increase your focus attriute from 8 to 9, you’d need 241 points. This is more than you can have in 4 PAs, so I’m assum­ing the Drama attribute can also be drawn on here (the rules seem to treat it as a spe­cial Pas­sion attibute so this seems rea­son­able). Is that cor­rect, and if so, it makes Q1 more likely to need fac­ing into, because to achieve the required PA points to spend, play­ers will poten­tially have to hold at least one of their PAs at 5 whilst oth­ers ‘catch up’ , to get to the point where they have enough for that sort of upgrade.

Or have I missed some­thing (most likely how it really works in the real world).
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Pas­sion attrib­utes capped at 5 7 years 8 months ago #503

  • Michael
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Mozusuke wrote:
1) What happes when the PA is at 5, and he mer­its another point (e.g. takes a great risk asso­ci­ated with the PA)
You don’t get that point; it’s lost. Keep­ing PAs at high val­ues makes the PC effi­cient, but at the risk of miss­ing a point that would oth­rwise have been awarded.

We specif­i­cally dis­en­cour­age groups to allow play­ers to quickly spend down PAs to avoid los­ing a point the moment is awarded. If the ref­ere awards a point, noth­ing can be done before the point goes to the PA; no hasty spend­ing down of the PA! If the PA is at 5 and you’d get another point you don’t get it, and that’s that.

Mozusuke wrote:
2) Look­ing at the costs asso­ci­ated with increas­ing attrib­utes, if you wanted to increase your focus attriute from 8 to 9, you’d need 241 points. This is more than you can have in 4 PAs, so I’m assum­ing the Drama attribute can also be drawn on here (the rules seem to treat it as a spe­cial Pas­sion attibute so this seems reasonable).
That’s cor­rect; Drama is a Pas­sion Attribute.

And we don’t want to make “max­ing out” Attrib­utes or Pro­fi­cien­cies easy. To do it, you will have to risk for­go­ing a few points, and most likely actu­ally lose some. That’s why we dis­en­cour­age allow­ing the spend­ing down of PAs before points are being awarded — it’s s’pposed to be hard.
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Pas­sion attrib­utes capped at 5 7 years 8 months ago #518

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Clear on the mechanic; clear on the intent. Happy. :)
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Pas­sion attrib­utes capped at 5 5 years 2 days ago #3055

  • JacobJ
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This is pretty closely related to a ques­tion I have, so I’ll use this thread instead of a new one. After all, necro­mancy should be encour­aged, right? :)

When advanc­ing by spend­ing PAs, can the points only be taken from PAs at 5?

When spend­ing the points, can the player switch out all the PAs that are reduced to zero (and only those)?
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Pas­sion attrib­utes capped at 5 5 years 1 day ago #3062

  • Allan
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Not sure what you mean by the last point (just returned from inter­na­tional trip).
But I allow my player to use points from any PA.
If its used he misses the in game bonus.
Allan
Mourn for us oppressed in fear
Chained and shack­led we are bound
Free­dom choked in dread we live
Since Tyrant was enthroned
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Pas­sion attrib­utes capped at 5 5 years 1 day ago #3063

  • JacobJ
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I guess the rules lay it out clearly after a thor­ough re-​read. It was one of the things I won­dered about after my first read-​through, but going back it was clear that any com­bi­na­tion of PAs can be spent and at any time, and that any PA can be switched out by reduc­ing it to zero (for exam­ple right after spend­ing the points), and in some cases by pay­ing an addi­tional PA point (if the new PA is unre­lated to the old one).
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Pas­sion attrib­utes capped at 5 5 years 1 day ago #3069

  • Anarak
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Michael wrote:
You don’t get that point; it’s lost. Keep­ing PAs at high val­ues makes the PC effi­cient, but at the risk of miss­ing a point that would oth­rwise have been awarded.

We specif­i­cally dis­en­cour­age groups to allow play­ers to quickly spend down PAs to avoid los­ing a point the moment is awarded. If the ref­ere awards a point, noth­ing can be done before the point goes to the PA; no hasty spend­ing down of the PA! If the PA is at 5 and you’d get another point you don’t get it, and that’s that.


This is one sub­ject that i’m still a lit­tle thorn.

Although I under­stand the intent and even endorse it, it’s a bit coun­ter­in­tu­itive. The bit about hav­ing it hard to improve past a cer­tain point is right, the bit about pun­ish­ing the player for hold­ing on its PA’s is a lit­tle off:

–The PA sys­tem is awe­some. One of the sell­ing points that buys my groups is how scenes that belong to a character’s pas­sions gives you an edge, that edge being the mechan­i­cal bonus. PA awe­some­ness is half defin­ing your char­ac­ter, half defin­ing the adven­ture and half the mechan­i­cal bonus. Every­time your PA’s aren’t giv­ing you bonuses in a related scene, that’s 13 of the fun that is not present.

–If the scene is a spe­cial one, like con­fronting the big bad, the lack of a bonus is even more salient. Alter­na­tively, if you just finally defeated the big bad and were at full PA, and your final reward for solv­ing that PA is instead wasted, it feels lack­lus­ter to say the least.

–Sure, the player can keep it at a low level, but that final show­down trope is way more epic if you’re fir­ing 45 rather than 1 or 2. Even if in the rules it says those num­bers don’t trans­late to impor­tance, deep down we can *feel* those 5 extra dices burn­ing, pump­ing up your char­ac­ter against leg­endary odds.

–Hav­ing the player worry about either a) have enough PA bonuses fir­ing or b) try not to waste it; is a metagame chal­lenge, it has no nar­ra­tive value per se. It doesn’t flow right. That’s IMHO any­way.

That being said, it won’t do if play­ers sim­ply sit at the top of a capped PA. I don’t have the answer to what would con­sti­tute the per­fect way to deal with this, perhap’s its a new sys­tem or a rework.

What i’m cur­rently doing:
–Any points granted over a cap goes to karma, same as if you had spent it.

–You can spend a drama point to tem­porar­ily improve a PA, for a scene. ex.: PA is “Destroy the Crimson-​Hand leader”.

You just improved you char­ac­ter so that PA is at 0. A lit­tle while later, in the same adven­ture, you actu­ally end up in a fight against the leader. Usu­ally you wouldn’t fire any­thing, but since this is an impor­tant scene/​fight, the player decides to spend 2 of his 3 drama points and grant a tem­po­rary PA “Destroy the…” a value of 2, last­ing until the scene ends. You sort of have a bet­ter drama expen­di­ture when it mat­ters.

What i’m cur­rently pon­der­ing:
–Instead of wast­ing, the player gets a drama point
–Instead of wast­ing, the player gets a tem­po­rary drama point that can’t be spent as improve­ment
–Shift PA’s at the cost of a drama point
–Trans­fer PA point to drama and vice-​versa (once per ses­sion)
–Another pos­i­tive thing, that is worse than hav­ing a reg­u­lar PA point

Thoughts?
Last Edit: 5 years 1 day ago by Anarak.
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Pas­sion attrib­utes capped at 5 4 years 11 months ago #3097

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JacobJ wrote:
When advanc­ing by spend­ing PAs, can the points only be taken from PAs at 5?

No, from absolutely any PA.

JacobJ wrote:
When spend­ing the points, can the player switch out all the PAs that are reduced to zero (and only those)?

Yes, he may switch any, all, or none of the PAs at 0. He may not switch one at 1 to 5, even if that PA hap­pens to have run its course in one way or another and thus become obso­lete. He would frist have to spend this PA down to 0.

Anarak wrote:
–Any points granted over a cap goes to karma, same as if you had spent it.

I actu­ally like this very much! It still encour­ages not keep­ing all PAs at high val­ues all the time while not pun­ish­ing the play­ers as severely as an entirely wasted point would. Super idea!

Anarak wrote:
–You can spend a drama point to tem­porar­ily improve a PA, for a scene. ex.: PA is “Destroy the Crimson-​Hand leader”.

Not ter­ri­bly keen on that one, though I see no actual harm done. Allow­ing to per­ma­nently switch Drama to PA at any time would be a dis­as­ter, as the play­ers could keep all the points in Drama and amp up what­ever PA they need at any time. By being allowed to spend 1 Drama to raise any PA by +1 (I’d prob­a­bly be inclined to +2) for the dura­tion of this scene only avoids this.

Anarak wrote:
–Instead of wast­ing, the player gets a drama point.

Strikes me as too much of a ben­fit. As Drama is at least as use­ful as other Pas­sions, there isn’t the slight­est dis­cour­age­ment any­more for play­ers not to keep their PAS at max­i­mum all the time.

Anarak wrote:
–Instead of wast­ing, the player gets a tem­po­rary drama point that can’t be spent as improvement.

Strikes me as too much.

Anarak wrote:
–Shift PA’s at the cost of a drama point.

A com­plete reshuf­fle at the cost of spend­ing 1 Drama seems to me well bal­anced. It is so costly that you won’t want to do that all the time, but there might well be times when this expen­di­ture is well worht it.

Anarak wrote:
–Trans­fer PA point to drama and vice-​versa (once per session)

Doing this at any time dur­ing a ses­sion, even if only once, strikes me as too much and too oppor­tune for the play­ers; it would be easy to abuse this. Giv­ing the oppor­tu­nity right at the begin­ning of the ses­sion seems to me the right point of balance.
Bow down: I am the emperor of dreams;
I crown me with the million-​colored sun
Of secret worlds incred­i­ble, and take
Their trail­ing skies for vest­ment when I soar.

Clark Ash­ton Smith, The Hashish Eater or The Apoc­a­lypse of Evil
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